The “A” Issue

Beliefnet.com:

Here is a lively discussion on why men shouldn’t be allowed to voice an opinion on abortion. I totally agree with that sentiment. Men wouldn’t dare allow someone to decide if they should have vasectomies, so why do they get to decide if a woman can have an abortion and when.

Here is something that I had to say on the issue:

10/25/2005 2:50 PM 138 out of 151

I agree whole heartedly that men should keep their lips shut when it comes to abortion. It’s very easy for a man to just walk away from that baby after he/she is born and leave mother and child to struggle through ( personal experience talking here). There are plenty of young men following in their fathers’ footsteps by making multiple babies with multiple partners (who may then refuse to get a job because of the child support payments). Maybe if the government stepped in and said to them “Well, you’ve had 7 kids by 7 women, so now it’s time for the snip, snip” they’d respect the privacy issue. I think that education on both sides needs to be stepped up to prevent these unwanted pregnancies. Both boys and girls should be taught- at home and school- more aggressively the consequences of unprotected sex. Unfortunately, a lot of these kids live by example- mom’s got 3 kids by 3 men and dad’s got 3 kids by 3 women. Then the girls just say “Well, if I get pregnant I’ll just have an abortion. It doesn’t matter.”

And you’re right, if you have an abortion, it is none of my business. But, if the child that is being aborted has developed to a point where it is viable (and that point moves earlier and earlier with each medical and scientific miracle), then, it is not about YOU having an abortion, it becomes about the life of another person

I agree with Bo on this one (gasp!). This argument also applies to rape and incest victims simply because they would have knowledge of their pregnancies in enough time to end it before the baby became viable. I, as a woman, disagree with abortion being used as birth control and believe that fetuses become babies after a certain amount of time. There’s a very simple way of not getting pregnant and most women in this country are well aware of that. Still, they take the time to lay down and then think it’s completely acceptable to terminate that life that they carelessly created. I know of three women who had abortions just because they didn’t like their babies’ daddies. Huh? Would I be willing to legislate my beliefs onto another person? No. I just wish more people would think before they act. Like Boadicea, I’m pro-choice, not pro-abortion.

Did you know it is legal for a woman to abort a baby up to 9 months?

I don’t know where you live, but in Ohio that’s not true. It stops being legal at 24 weeks. I wanted to deliver my fatally ill(Potter’s Syndrome ), unborn child early , but wasn’t allowed because the time period had lapsed (my early induction was considered abortion, though I would have labor, hold my child, then bury him instead of committing his body to the biohazard bin).

Kim, an anencephalic child isn’t even a person, and never will be

Maybe you should mention this to the mother of an anencephalic child?

ANENCEPHALY SUPPORT FOUNDATION

If you’ve never had a child of your own die and felt that unbelievable pain then you should also be mum on that subject.

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10/25/2005 7:15 PM 151 out of 151

Isis, This is where the government should get involved. They should teach about abortion and right to life issues before young girls get pregnant. A lot of schools teach abstinence only birth control in school and frankly that doesn’t work.

I agree completely. These abstinence only programs don’t work, no matter what the other side says. Kids see sex everywhere now (unless they’re not allowed any contact with the outside world) and they want to experiment. The only real way to protect you child is to talk to them about real options and real consequences, not just “Don’t do it.” Since a lot of parents don’t want to/can’t talk to their kids about such subjects then they need someone to do it for them. And there is a fair amount of boys that don’t have any male guidance, except the men who fathered them then took off, that really need that education too. If someone gets real with these children then maybe, just maybe, there won’t be a need for so many abortions (or vasectomies ;)).

It’s really about morality. And I’m not talking necessarily religious morality, but just plain old morality. The idea that we should be able to do whatever we want to do whenever we want it and NOT have to pay the price for it is way too prevalent in our society.

Who’s going to be teaching the morality then? The fathers, who a lot of the time make the babies then walk away scot free?
The mothers who are themselves to blame for allowing this to happen to them? My daughter’s aunt was one of the people that I mentioned who had an abortion because she didn’t like the baby’s father. And her mother encouraged the abortion (after she realized that her daughter wasn’t a virgin anymore). It would be great if everyone took responsibility for the upbringing of their own children, but this isn’t always the case. The only way to stop these kind of cycles is to look at it head-on and tackle the issues, then offer ways to protect these children from having to make decisions like abortion.

And as I looked at that site, you could see the closure the parents get, and the bittersweet joy they would get at their child’s birth. Abortion doesn’t deal with that, even though women who have had abortions experience the loss of their child as well.

Sadly, there are too many sites like that. The closure is exactly the reason why I didn’t opt for the abortion that my doctor suggested (as opposed to early delivery, which to me is completely different). My story, if you’re curious, can be found here.

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The bold points are from other members, their responses to each other. The worst one, in my opinion, was from someone who said “An Anencephalic child isn’t a person…” What the hell is that? Because that child is doomed to begin with? Of course, I took issue with that. My own child died shortly after birth (due to a genetic fatal birth defect).

I just wanted to look at this issue again.

My stance? Abortion for birth control is bad. Abortion for medical reasons is ok. There should always be other options available for the mother. I would never think to legislate a woman’s body, I will count on the gods to take care of that. I would also never think to legislate a man’s body, but maybe that should be a threat. Then maybe we could all get somewhere close to the same page on this issue.

I’ll keep you updated on any backlash I receive for my comments.

UPDATE 2/19/06

I cannot believe that I have to come here and address my stance again. But it seems that because I would never have an abortion and think that a fetus is a child then I’m a “closet Christian, Right wing nut-job”. LOL. That didn’t bother me at all. I know who I am, they don’t know me at all- except that I’m not toting their line. And by “their” I mean other Pagans (I guess having your own thoughts and beliefs somehow makes you bad when you don’t agree with them).

Here’s my post.

/rant on.

How is abortion as a form of birth control for well-educated women a
good thing? Obviously these women would know how to *prevent* the
pregnancy and so wouldn’t need to have the abortion. Here’s some
other options:

a. take the damned pill
b. get your tubes tied
c. have your partner wear a condom while you use the spermicide or
d. just keep your legs closed.

Want a good reason (against)? Abortion is a surgical procedure that
is completely unnecessary (in a lot of cases) and come with a host of
risks itself. Take proper precautions and the argument becomes moot.

I don’t really care one way or the other what other women do with
their bodies, but I sure as hell don’t like to hear my children called
“internal parasites”. I take issue with the entire “what if the baby
has a birth defect” argument, too. Until you’ve been in that
situation (or any of the situations that are mentioned) quit assuming
that abortion would always be the easy answer. When I was 17 weeks
pregnant with my son I found out that he had a fatal birth defect
(Potter’s Syndrome Type II). After doing some research I decided that
I wanted my labor to be induced early, but the doctors wouldn’t do it
(the nurses at the hospital were morally against it). They wanted me
to have a D&E. The problem was that with a D&E I wouldn’t have had
the chance to see my son, hold him, get those little foot prints, or
even give him a proper funeral. So I carried that baby in my belly
for 3 more months so he could die 36 minutes after he was born. I
could go on and on, but I won’t bore you with the personal details. I
realize that just doesn’t cut it.

I agree that there are too many unwanted children in this world. But
most of those are from mothers who are too ignorant to know better.
Maybe we should work on breaking that cycle of poverty and abuse for
these kids. As far as having babies for welfare- in Ohio that’s just
not going to get you anywhere, especially since you’re only allowed to
be in the system for 5 years total. I’m curious to know how many
women here have had an abortion. I know three women personally that
have and it wasn’t easy for any of them. All of them kept it private,
none shouted the deed from the rooftops - no shitty little t-shirts
for them.

And doesn’t personal responsibility matter anymore- to anyone? It’s
irresponsible to get laid without protection and then rush off to the
nearest abortion clinic. It doesn’t have anything to do with my moral
view (which is way different), I just think it’s common sense to use
prevention. Does everything have to be so easy?

Yes, I was slightly incoherent, but that didn’t stop the name calling from coming on oh, so strong (from liberal Pagans who are supposed to be so tolerant). So, instead of continuing on that list, I’m addressing my reasoning here.

Here’s the thing that got me, a couple of completely militant comments. None of which were made to me, btw. I was just a right-wing Christian nutjob, lol, because I was advocating prevention before pregnancy and less abortion all the way around.

1. “Are you telling me that some kind of internal parasite” should be sacred?”

(Was made to another on a mailing list who thought that all life was sacred- according to her religion.)

2. “No one has the right to be inside my body without my permission.”

(Was made in response to a troll on, but I thought it was odd.)

3. “A woman’s uterus is not just for making babies.”

(Same thread as #2).

First off, biologically speaking, yes, a woman’s uterus is for making babies, just like your teeth are made for chewing and your eyes are made for seeing. I’m not trying to shove my morals down your throat by saying that, because that has nothing to do with morality. It’s just a fact. Also, a man’s sperm is specifically designed for joining with a woman’s egg (in her uterus, by the way) to create another human being. It’s called survival of the species in it’s most basic form. Let’s look at it another way, when a dog wants to get pregnant she goes into heat and the male of her species mounts her, then baby doggies are made. She allows this instinctively because she is keeping her species going. That’s precisely for what your reproductive organs were designed, so don’t say your uterus isn’t for that purpose. That argument is simply bullshit and would, ultimately, only make you look like a wingnut yourself.

Now, if you willingly engage in a sex with a male and without protection then you are, by default, giving that someone permission to live inside of you. To say that you didn’t give that “person” (her term really, if you notice the quote) is just ignorance of simple biology. If you don’t know how babies are made by now then, I’m afraid, there’s no hope for you.

As for sacred, yes, there are a lot of us who believe that the babies that grow inside of us are sacred. That’s a moral point and can be argued until the end of time with no winners in the end. I realize that in the Pagan community to be called “Christian” or “Christian-like” is an insult, but my spiritual beliefs are not based on biblical thought_[1]. My religion stresses the importance of both personal responsibility and cooperation (between etheral souls). It is ultimately my responsibility to make sure I don’t create another vessel for which another soul may eventually inhabit. If I do get pregnant then I must cooperate with my gods and that soul, to give it a chance to live out it’s lifetime (even if that lifetime is just minutes). Those are my beliefs and the reason I would never have an abortion.

I again stress that I would never want to legislate anyone’s personal morality_[2], which is what abortion really is. I would never vote or campaign for anyone who would legislate another’s personal morality. It’s none of my business what another does with his or her body and/or soul. However it seems to me that I have to not only agree that babies are “little blobs of mucus”, but also have an abortion before I will be considered a true Pagan. So much for making up one’s mind.

Since that’s the case I want no part of it. I’ll think of a new name for myself and be done with the closed-minded Pagans that insist I think just like them to be part of their elitist little “group”.

_{[1] It doesn’t bother me to be called Christian-like because most of the Christians I know are decent folks. Using someone’s religious beliefs as an epithet is incorrigible in my opinion.}

[2]Personal morality meaning that it’s not going to hurt someone- or society- in a serious way. I don’t believe murder, for instance, would fall under personal morality.

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