Response to a response

Updated below

Joe posted a few days ago about Black folks taking a stand against the use of ‘nigga’ in their community. Specifically Black Enterprise Magazine against Eddie Griffin’s use of the word at their event in Miami.

I’ve made my feelings regarding the use of the word quite clear here.

An excerpt for those too lazy to click:

Now, I’m not black. But my daughter is. I say she’s black because she says she’s black. She was forced by white folks to choose one or the other. I don’t blame her. I encourage her to learn about strong black women (particularly American black women). I want her to embrace her heritage, learn about it, and be proud of it. Is that wrong of me to focus on her black half? I don’t think so. Society views her now as a black child and they will view her as a black woman. That’s what she is and what she always will be. Because of that I take up her fight. Hers, but no one else’s. In her interest I don’t allow anyone to say “nigger” or the less offensive “nigga” (there’s a difference and if you don’t know what it is then shhh). Lil’ Miss isn’t allowed to say it, her aunt’s/uncles/grandparents aren’t allowed to say, and her friends aren’t allowed to say it. Period.

Point of fact, “nigger” cannot in any sense of the word be applied to whites. Or, really, any other ethnicity. That word was born out of ignorance, hate, and utter oppression. Historically, the American slave owners bought slaves from Spaniards, who called the slaves “negroes” (”black”). Some slave owners either couldn’t learn to pronounce the word correctly or simply refused and made due with “nigger”. The word was and is used to denigrate an entire race of people, by people who didn’t/don’t believe that blacks were/are even human. “Ugly” doesn’t even begin to describe that word to me.

Then we get to the age old “They call themselves that but whine because we call them that too”*. Bullshit. Fucking bullshit. I personally don’t believe that blacks using “nigga” takes the power out of the more offensive term. Of course, I don’t believe calling myself a cunt makes that word any less demeaning. But I know plenty of black folks that see it as taking the word away from white people and bringing the power of it back to themselves. Similar to women calling each other “bitch”. When your friend says it it’s a term of endearment, when an enemy says it the fight is on.

My post was about banning/not banning (making it illegal) the word. Joe’s wasn’t. Joe’s post was highlighting the fact that some Black folks have taken it upon themselves to make the word taboo among themselves. I applaud that because I think that word is evil and has zero redeeming qualities. That’s my opinion.

Now about the comments to Joe’s post. At one point I said:

bickerfest said:
“it works in expanding the definition and increasing its usage, thus lowering the negative shock impact of hearing it used — which to me is a positive thing.

if a young person is called a nigger and can laugh it off because they hear it used all the time in a non-offensive way, all the better.”

No. It doesn’t work that way. First of all, the historical connotation of ‘nigger’ is not lost on any black folks, young or old. And it shouldn’t be. The word was used for centuries to dehumanize their ancestors. It helped make it possible for their ‘betters’ to continue to use them as animals, treat them worse and deny them their very identities. There is no good in it, other than historical. There should never be a good reason to use it.

You say that racists don’t use the word in public. I want to know where you live. Because I know that it’s used quite frequently in public where I live (in Ohio). You say that you’ve had it rough because you stand up to racists, but I’ve been disowned because of my stance on the same. My daughter’s high school history teacher her that they wouldn’t be going over Black History during BHM (Feb. 2006) because it just “wasn’t that important”. Not a good example, I agree.

Ok, when my daughter’s class was discussing “Huckleberry Finn” one girl refused to say “ass” (or something similar) because it was bad, but she had no problem saying “nigger” (not so bad to her). There’s not a whole lot of public pressure to make that word taboo in my neck of the woods.

Look what happened to the children in Jena, Louisiana. That was very public. Maybe you should ask them if they ever have to hear that word in public.

You say that it’s ok for non-racists to say the word, but not racists. Other than a blatant example, how do you know? Where’s that line? I know for a fact that I, not the slightest bit racist, would not be able to say any form of that word around my black family and friends. Not in jest or anger. Their line for that talk is skin color. Doesn’t matter my intentions, I’m white.

I’ve banned the word in my house and that ban includes all races. My family members argued with me at first, but then respected my rule. I don’t want my kids thinking it’s ok in any way, shape or form. I’m glad that the black community is going that same route.

This elicited a few posts from bickerfest in reply:

[1] the word is just a word. it can be used in any way that a speaker or writer wishes to use it (despite those who would attempt to “ban” it).

did you see the Curb Your Entusiasm episode where Larry and the rapper exchange niggerhood with eachother? was that divisive? nope.

“am i your nigger?”

“you’re my nigger, Larry!”

how about that one season finale of Curb when Larry starts using profanities to help out the cook at the grand opening who had tourettes syndrome. absolutely hilarious and heart-warming.

“and empty repitition of the opposite won’t change that.”

i obviously disagree.

nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger

---

“You say that it’s ok for non-racists to say the word, but not racists.”

well, yeah.

that would be the whole point of “taking back the word”.

it sublimely turns the racists into the oppressed. is that great or what?

“Other than a blatant example, how do you know? Where’s that line? ”

it’s not rocket science by any means.

[2]give me any example and i’ll show you how easy it is to tell the difference.

it’s a context thinger, like anything else.

---

“You say that racists don’t use the word in public. I want to know where you live.”

New York.

“Because I know that it’s used quite frequently in public where I live (in Ohio). ”

[3]is it? in the newspapers? in church? at the store?

AFAICT, racists generally only use the nigger word under two circumstances:

1] amongst themselves (or among those whom they assume are themselves) in order to prop up their own shabby egos and/or idiocies

2] when they lose their dumb-assed racist tempers

---

“I know for a fact that I, not the slightest bit racist, would not be able to say any form of that word around my black family and friends. Not in jest or anger. Their line for that talk is skin color. Doesn’t matter my intentions, I’m white.”

[4]if your black family doesn’t “trust” you to use that word, they either need to lighten up or you need to gain their trust, FFS.

either they’re being extremely silly or you’re being extremely paranoid and/or vice versa.

First of all, everything I know about the word and how Black folks use it among themselves comes from speaking with (aka having conversations) Black folks about the subject. Do I speak for all Black folks? No. That’s ignorant. I repeat what I’m told by people who know about what they’re talking. At any rate, let’s break it down, shall we?

• [1]:
  The Black folks that I know personally distinguish between ‘nigger’ and ‘nigga’. So, you’re quote is wrong. Listen very carefully to those rap words, or whatever they are, and you’ll notice there is no ‘er’ at the end of the word. There’s a reason for that.
• [2]:
  No, I won’t give you an example. The onus was on you to provide the proof there. Other than a blatant example, how do you know? Where’s that line? Black people that I have talked to about this have told me and I told you. Now, you tell me where you think the line is and how we would know who’s the racist and who’s not.
• [3]:
  Yes, it is. It’s used in schools by children, in church’s by adults, and my own child was called that when she was a toddler at the goddamned playground. You live in New York? Which part? The city? The bastion of all things ethnic? What the fuck do you know about my community? There is, at this very moment, KKK literature sitting in a Hardee’s restaurant just up the road from my home (well, about 5 miles up the road, but around here that’s “just up”). Your comment was arrogant and assuming. Perhaps Awaiting will school you on what it’s like in Bumfuck, Mississippi.
• [4]:
  They don’t need to “trust” me. It’s not a word that white folks should use in jest or even in familiarity. It’s offensive to them especially when it comes out of a white person’s mouth. (By “they” I mean my FAMILY. My daughter and my ex in-laws with whom I’ve still got a good relationship. Can you believe that shit?) They are neither silly or paranoid. Of course, I know better than to insult them by thinking I have a right to use that word. It’s called respect for other people. To pretend that I somehow know what that word means to a Black person and then to use that word in familiarity like that would be disrespectful.

Personally, I think that if someone wants to speak about a word that has never been used against them to denigrate, humiliate and insult them then they should sit with some people that have had those experiences with that word. They should ask them how they feel about the word and how those feelings were shaped. They should listen and learn and take that new-found knowledge out into the goddamned world and SPREAD it. The fact is that it doesn’t matter what you, as one with power of your own and white skin to back it up, feel about a word such as ‘nigger’. You will never have the experience with the word that Black folks, especially older people and those living in rural communities, have had with that word. You don’t fucking know.

I also believe that if the Black community is coming together and refusing to accept even watered down versions of the word, then they should be commended. It doesn’t matter if white folks think that they should be allowed to say/hear it or if they think that the community should take back that gods-awful word to try to water it down some more. It matters that Black Americans are saying “Enough of this crap! We don’t want to hear it anymore from our own.” That matters.

Personally, I’m glad. I’m joyous that one magazine took this strong of a stand against this nonsense. I’m happy for my daughters, because I don’t want them to think there is anything redeeming about that word or it’s history. I don’t know if it’s going to take the community by storm, but I hope it does. It’d be nice to be able to listen to hip-hop again.

Update:

Seems that Bickerfest continued this conversation in his email group, of which I was apart until I saw at Joe’s that instead of countering my arguments here he resorted to calling me “emotional and irrational”. Since I have no use for ad hominem attacks, I’ve unsubscribed from the group. I did post a response to his argument there. But since most of you aren’t members of that particular group, and because his newest arguments are just comical, I’ve decided to post my response here. The bolded portions are his response to another member’s post.

FTR, I haven’t unsubscribed and have no intention of doing so. I’m a busy woman and have had to prioritize my time. However, I have a couple of seconds to respond to this.

Please keep in mind that in the Black community there are movements to eliminate self-depreciating language, such a ‘nigga’ and ‘ho’, and to stop the sexualization of Black women (”video ho’s”). These are valid for many reasons, none of which I’ll get into right now. A little research into Black American culture will go a long way, I think.

it’s an ego thinger, mostly.

I’ve noticed that you have refused to acknowledge any kind of validity in what happened to inspire the post and the argument. Not only that, but you’ve completely missed the point of the discussion, which was that people have a right to decide what’s acceptable language in their own presence. You basically called me and my family paranoid and silly (or vice versa) because our experiences and beliefs don’t align with yours, which doesn’t include overt racism and hatred directed at you in a way that took away your personal power. I can make that assumption based on the assumptions you’ve made regarding the rest.

for instance, i know racists who are otherwise very loving people,
they’ve just got a major mental block about their racism.

a lot of it is cultural.

Ya think?

like Paula and her crusade against the use of the word gay.

but that’s a different argument with wholly different set of issues.

How so? The use of “gay” to describe something in a derogatory manner, thereby lessening and dehumanizing the people that call themselves “gay”.

which i wish i had time to argue right now, but i don’t. [1]

it’s way more complicated than the “racist” word thinger.

Amazing.

i’d need to see the video to make that assessment.

and then i’d have to wonder whether it was staged in some way.

This goes back to what I was saying about the language movement within the Black community. You refuse to see that as valid and yet you really don’t understand why it should be respected.

i just can’t believe that people would react that way if the comedian
was doing the usual schtick unless someone did a major spin-doctoring
while yanking the microphone — or timed it just so.

anyway, i have way more faith in people than that.

Why? Why can’t you believe that people want some civility and respect? Faith in what?

if they were seriously doing a standing ovation over a microphone
being yanked from a comedian who was not being hateful, i think
they’re being absolutely silly and utterly stupid and short-sighted.

Not hateful to YOU, who have not had that used to dehumanize you and countless family members. Arleen was right when she said there’s a history behind that word, and NONE of it good. You completely dismiss that the possibility that the audience found the language hateful.

it makes me totally ashamed of myself for backing down somewhat.

The conversation continues at my blog where I’ve answered your response to my comment. You’re welcome to join in. No, I won’t ban you. I’ve never had to do that and I doubt you’d force me to start.

or you can raise your children not to be racists, which would be a far
more efficient use of your teaching time.

The fact is that children are NOT born racist, so they must be taught to be so. They use words that they are taught- so if they aren’t taught to view others as wrong and less than them they won’t do that and if they’re not taught the disparaging words, they won’t use them. It’s very simple, really. And when they learn those words outside of the home then parents should teach them why they’re unacceptable words. Simple.

> and I can try to
> influence the people around me, but when it gets to the point that
> people want to actually censor a word within our society, well, I’m
> sorry, but that’s when it crosses the line. And basically, that’s what
> it seems that the Sharpton crowd (I think that’s who was mentioned and
> I’m too lazy to go doublecheck) want to do. Good luck to them.

no. bad luck to them.

Sharpton wasn’t part of the above mentioned event, though he did speak on the incident. And why would you wish someone bad luck in their endeavors to be seen as real, equal people?

as if the “n word” would be something bad even if racism didn’t exist,
FFS.

i hope you see how absurdly ridiculous that is.

So, you’re saying that it’s NOT bad? Well, of course you are, it’s obvious. This is what I mean by arrogance. You haven’t got a history with that word and so you see nothing wrong with it. Do you use it? I know, that’s a silly question and completely rhetorical. Are you capable of empathy? Have you had any discussions EVER with a real, live in-your-face Black person and discussed this with them? I’m a little psychic so I can pretty much guess your answer. No surprises. If you’d like I can get you in contact with one or two and you can discuss these issues via email. But really I don’t see the point. I don’t believe you’re at all capable of seeing a pov that’s different than your own.

> Or perhaps not.

hey, like i said, bickerfest lost two reasonably intelligent
subscribers over the discussion in Joe the Troll’s blog.

Joe the TROLL’s blog, FFS.

people are totally ridiculous.

Some people have standards. I won’t link to a blog nor interact with a person that has obvious racist/homophobic/sexist tendencies. That’s my right and their’s too. Why should people subjective themselves to bullshit online when there’s so much more intellectually stimulating conversation happening?

It’s totally ridiculous to speak down to people who’s opinions and life experiences differ from yours. I will admit that I was insulted when you decided my family and my personal experiences were silly and paranoid. And you just side-stepped implying that I haven’t been raising my children right. After cooling down I’ve decided that it’s really comical and, honestly, typical. You have succeeded in getting a rise out of people. You’ve gone above and beyond what was necessary to encourage people to contribute to the discussion. At first I thought you were just interested in voicing a different viewpoint. I have since come to the conclusion that you want conversation to move here and that you REALLY do believe that your views are superior to even the views of people who know better than you. That makes it comical.

At any rate, feel free to engage at my site. Just familiarize yourself with my comment policy and you’ll be fine. Or stay here. I don’t care. As it is, my response to this will be posted at my site so that those that have unsubscribed can see it.

Here
http://www.fabulouslyjinxed.com/2007/09/11/response-to-a-response/

Jennyjinx

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