Joe made a comment on my last post. I feel that my response to this particular comment deserves it’s own post because of how strongly I feel about what I’m about to say.
Let’s break this down a little.
Extremes always bug me, and forcing abortion is as wrong as abstinence-only education. There’s always that gadfly within me, however, that points straight to the map of the Gray Area. Choices can be limited by more than just ideals or beliefs. If my child’s health would be threatened by the pregnancy, for instance, you’re damn right I’ll push the abortion issue to the point of force. There may be financial reasons as well, which I think is a pressure the blogger you speak of has weighing heavily on the entire family at this time.
Ideals and beliefs? That is what this whole “issue” is about. Someone else’s ideals or beliefs being forced on someone else. Either way. That was what my post was about anyway- women being allowed to make a choice one way or the other. Without the added fear of being ostracized by the family or convicted of a crime.
And the child’s health? Well, duh. But there’s more to all of this than just physical health and there is still the culpability and responsibility of the child. What kind of health problem are you speaking of? Is this one of those extremes you mention?
Do you think that there aren’t other girls and women that face these situations? The baby can’t always be waived off as an inconvenience that the family will conquer if they pull together, a la the Waltons. Would you let your daughter choose for herself if you knew FOR CERTAIN that the family would lose the house as a result of the expense? (Not saying that this is her situation, just being hypothetical here - instead of losing the house, put in any disaster you think is realistic.)
The Waltons? Are you serious? Who the hell did you think I was talking about? You don’t think I know that there are millions of women who forced to make these kinds of decisions every year? I’m not some goddamned Pollyanna who just fell off the turnip truck. And frankly, I’m more than a little insulted that you would insinuate that this is completely ancedotal. Would I let my daughter choose? Hell yeah, I would. It’s her fucking body and it’s her responsibility. Do you think that I would sit by and let her not face her responsibilities if she chose to have the child? Do you think that I would skip around the house happily readying our family and home for a child while my daughter lounged on the couch and ate fucking chocolates all day?
You’re wrong. I don’t believe in the “Walton” method of pulling together to conquer a problem. I never have. Here’s a clue: I have had a rough time in my life. My daughter lived through 12 really tough years right along with me. I know what it’s like to struggle. I know that there are tough choices to be made and that the best choice isn’t always the best fucking choice- but it’s the only choice. I also know that at the end of the day I’m not going to force my child to do anything that’s going to scar her emotionally for the rest of her life.
Just for the record, though, I was 17 and still in high school when she was born. Her father didn’t give a fuck about her until she was 12. I struggled to keep us warm and fed by working my ass off for years. So I do know.
Frankly, I find it insulting that you would assume that there would be nothing but lollipops and rainbows in my home in this kind of situation. Or that because I’m her mother I would lose my reasoning ability.
I wonder about another thing, too. We do not consider anyone to be legally mature enough do anything of substance, like vote, until the age of 18. They are too immature to handle alcohol until 21, and science now says that the brain’s faculties for reason and decision-making is not fully developed until 25. Yet a child of 14 is going to be allowed to make the most important choice she’ll ever make? She can’t choose to have a beer but we’ll just “guide” her on whether or not to alter the future for herself and everyone around her? That sounds more idealistic than practical. Think of all the lesser decisions that you would have no problem FORCING upon your kids, after all. Staying in school, for instance, or not staying out too late. Both of these can be serious things, but still take a back seat to motherhood. If she lights up a cigarette in the living room, will you discuss it or yank it out of her mouth? Most parents have no problem forcing their daughters to forego the tattoo until they turn 18, at least. Once again, the other situations that fill that family’s gray area will help determine what way is best to handle it.
You think that forcing a child to either carry a child or get an abortion is the same as forbidding smoking in my home or refusing to sign consent for a tattoo1 ? No. Not even close. There is so much more involved in bearing children than just “Oops. Look what I did. My bad.” There are more complicated, life altering ramifications when children are involved. All of those ramifications should be considered when a young woman decides what her choice is going to be. It’s a lot easier dealing with a cigarette or a tattoo. There’s a whole lot less emotional involvement with those types of things. She’s never going to look back and wonder what life would have been life “if only”2 . That is apples and oranges.
No case is exactly alike, but forcing a 14 year-old to have an abortion is just as bad as forcing her to give birth- which you can bet is argued against on the other side. By giving her a choice she can learn to live with the consequences eventually. This is not a case of in after curfew.
I find it interesting that among the tactics you’ve used with your daughter, you list “threatened.” I know, that mothers THINK that they can threaten and be supportive at the same time, but mothers think weird shit, let’s face it. Mine thought I needed to be able to make biscuits when I went to see the Grateful Dead for three days. I have no idea where that synapse fired off from, but I took the pan and the Bisquick so she’d shut up about it. You think that “threatening in a supportive way” is substantially different, even though it really isn’t (threats are an attempt to force, after all) because you feel you know better than your daughter.
Kind of like “Oh, she’s just hormonal” but not. Right?
I find it interesting that you think I’m not being supportive by threatening. What did I threaten her with? Let’s see. Oh, yes. “If you have a baby this young you would be giving that baby the same kind of life that I gave you” or “If you have a baby this young, you may not be able to go to college” or “If you have a baby this young that child is going to have a hard time with his mama struggling to make ends meet”. Or did you think I meant that I would throw her ass out and forget I ever saw her? Or maybe that I would kick her ass from here to Mississippi?
Guess what, I was supportive at the same time that I was threatening her. I was threatening her with a life like the one I had given her. I was there, I know. I wanted to let her know that she didn’t have to go there and she didn’t have to raise her children in that way. That is supportive.
Well, duh, you DO know better. That’s why we are put in charge of kids in the first place. We know that if adults aren’t in charge, our species is doomed, because the young ones are stupid.
In fact, I think that if parents CANNOT force kids in anyway, the only thing that would keep our species going is the fact that they’d all have babies at age thirteen, shortly before doing something stupid that gets them killed. Cynical, I know, but cynics are right more often than not, it seems.
There are certain things that I do my best to prevent my child from doing. And up to a certain age I make all the decisions. Because that’s my job. It’s also my job to raise an adult that knows there are consequences and that there are some not-so-fun decisions to be made. I hope that the right decision is made, but I can’t make all the decisions. There’s a point where that stops. It no longer becomes a matter of me making all the decisions for her because I can’t. Were it my choice, I would choose abstinence for my child until she’s at a point in her life where she’s able to properly prepared to care for another life3 and to give of herself what is required to be a decent parent. I would choose that she never have to make that choice herself. But I can’t and so her choices must be viable, available, and hers.
Back on topic, though. There are more choices than birth or no birth for young and old women to make. Those start before the pregnancy. But my original beef was not with the abortion issue except that some of those who fight for 14 year-old girls to have an abortion don’t respect the decision of those same girls to abstain from one. There is no easy choice for a young woman to make when she’s not prepared for this. It’s not easy and I know this.
My exact point is that this isn’t a black and white/us vs. them issue. It’s more complicated with a lot more variables than just a sperm and egg coming together after a few minutes of hot sex. There are a lot more factors to consider when faced with this situation than is smoking bad or is she going to like that tattoo when she’s 80. You cannot effectively fight for one choice while taking away the other. It doesn’t work that way.
By the way, if she came up with the money, I would sign for a tattoo. I have one and who am I to deny her? It’s her body, right? Heh.
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Sphere: Related Content- She can choose to drink or smoke whenever she’s not at home, actually. I did a lot of that as a teenager. Should I kick her out on the street for these trangressions? [↩]
- Ignoring the extreme of a three pack a day habit that leads to lung cancer, of course. [↩]
- Is anyone ever really prepared? [↩]
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P.S.
I took a lot of time thinking about this before I made this post. It still has me fired up.
I’ve been thinking about these posts. Here’s another aspect (for me): there’s a huge diff between 13 and 16, IMO. While I’d give a lot of weight to what a 16 year old says she wants, I wouldn’t give as much weight to a 13 year old’s opinion/wants. I might be pretty insistent that my 13 year old terminate a pregnancy.
It’s hard to propose any input on this subject broadly. Each and every case has its own issues to be thought about and resolved. (And as a guy, sometimes even I know when to keep my trap shut.)
Miz UV,
There’s a huge difference in those ages. I agree. But my beef was actually with the notion that parents who wouldn’t force their young girls to have an abortion are bad, but those that would are good. To me one is just as bad as the other. I was thinking of those folks that fight for the right to abortion refusing to believe in the right to give birth. Maybe that didn’t come through clearly? I dunno.
mikster,
Welcome! This isn’t an easy issue to deal with at. Unless you’re looking at it in black/white terms. Thanks for taking the time to comment.
Damn! Remind me not to fire you up!
That was a lot of stuff. While it might not quite be on topic, one thing I might agree with Joe is on parental responsibility. Parents are indeed responsible for thier children’s actions up to a certain age. We can argue about what that age is, 14, 16, 18, whatever. One thing that’s not metioned that I want to throw my 2 cents in on is parental notification. While I agree that the ultimate decision may be on the girl (assuming she’s under 18), I think parents need to know. Again, this may be a seperate issue, but I firmly believe that privacy for minors is a myth. As long as I’m legally responsible for my child’s actions, then I’m entitled to know everything about them, especially when it comes to their health. While I respect their privacy to a certain level, there’s no guarentee of it in my household.
I also agree with you on the issue of threatening your children. That works up to a certain age and then if you push it too far, you end up with a rebelious kid that won’t listen to you. And then you’ve lost them. Children need to know there are consequences for actions and that these consequences can’t be made to go away. It would be great if they could consider these consequences BEFORE they take an action such as engaging in sexual activity. But beating over the head with it once they make a mistake won’t work either. As you said, you can actually be forceful and supportive at the same time.
Sydwynd,
I agree with you there. I think it’s important for caring parents to know what’s going on with their children. There are a lot of people that are against notification laws at all, and I don’t see that as reasonable. Yes, there are going to be some parents that jump off the deep end when they find out the news that their child is expecting, but a child shouldn’t have to go through that alone.
There isn’t a guarantee of privacy in my home either. Lil’ Miss knows better than to expect it. But, again, that wasn’t my original beef. It was the lack of choice on one side while advocating it on the other.
“I was thinking of those folks that fight for the right to abortion refusing to believe in the right to give birth. Maybe that didn’t come through clearly?”
Oh yah, that came through loud and clear!