I don’t consider myself a grammar Nazi. When I say “grammar”, of course I’m referring to English grammar. I certainly can’t speak any other language fluently. Ok, back to what I was saying. I’m not a grammar Nazi. Not anymore. And it really chaps my ass when I see someone else bludgeoning someone else about their grammar. Especially when the writer with the imperfect English grammar isn’t a native English speaker.
I can’t say that I’ve always felt this way. There are times when I see English grammar that is so atrocious it makes my eyes water and I have nightmares for a week. And when I would see perfect English grammar I would sit and bask in it for a while. Ah. It was nice.
Until I realized that some of those with the worst grammar- English grammar – weren’t even raised speaking the language. These folks, from Asia or parts of Europe or South America – tap away into their little blogs in a language with which native speakers often struggle. They throw in strange words and mix up subject/verb things, but what they write is comprehensible. That means I can understand it, though it’s a struggle at times, and their point gets across. Holy shitballs, that’s fucking impressive. I don’t care who you are. If you can write/converse in more than one (and sometimes three +) languages then you need a pat on the back, not someone poking and prodding at your commentary.
I think that using English grammar as a measurement with which to base the intelligence of non-native English speakers is a crock of shit. The very fact that these folks are writing in a language not their own is to be commended. It shows that they are indeed smart and shouldn’t be brushed off because they use “then” when they should’ve used “than”.
When I was young and very bad, I spent some time in Florida. I lived with a young Colombian man and his family. No English was ever spoken in the house except by him, his sister and me. This guy had never taken a grammar course in his life. And couldn’t read it. He would say seemingly mundane things in a way that would crack me up. Instead of “toilet paper” he would say “paper toilet” or “paper wall” for “wallpaper”. He used Spanish grammar rules and applied them to the English language. His cousin, who was learning to read English on his own, would say “curt-ane” instead of “curtin”. When I corrected him, he declared that he was saying it like it was spelled. Ah, the hilarity.
The point is that in blogovia we’re not sitting in an American cafe conversing with others whose native language is English. We’re global, folks, and the fact is some folks just don’t know English grammar- even though they’ve taken the time to learn the language. Shit, there are plenty of native English speakers who can’t master the rules of grammar and they’ve had years of it in school. But that doesn’t make one stupid or deserving of derision just because they haven’t learned that “than” and “then” are different (though many people pronounce them the same- learning English from listening to it also has it’s drawbacks).
Also, I personally know some extremely smart folks who haven’t exactly mastered English grammar (or neat handwriting, for that matter). My math professor, for instance. The man is a genius at math (and fills out his jeans oh-so well). But his handwriting sucks ass. Very hard to read if it’s not a string of numbers. My psychology professor (Dr. KindaCute) is super intelligent when it comes to people. Has slight difficulty when spelling without spellchecker. I like to use profanity (which has been called a sign of stupidity by some) but I’m an excellent problem solver. But the grammar Nazis will tear us down. “Oh, you suck at grammar so you’re stupid…poo poo poo”. Bah!
By the way, I happened upon a Blog Catalog discussion wherein someone was bitching about someone else and someone chimed in that the someone else used atrocious English grammar and how can anyone take that someone serious. Then that someone else chimed in using a couple of different languages (and some stupid fucking ad hominems which really did fuck up his whole argument). But the grammar Nazi just kept on. Then someone mentioned that it took them 20 minutes to read the thread and she was like “Well, I participated in the thread and it didn’t take me anywhere near 20 minutes to get through it.” *sniff* Obviously, if one has neither mastered English grammar nor speed reading then one is beneath contempt.
Whoop-di-fucking-doo. Aren’t you fucking special?
By the way, I can speak enough Spanish and French to converse on a basic level. I cannot, however, write coherently in either language. That would make me kind of smart, except for the fact that I say “FUCK” a lot and my second favorite phrase is “holy shitballs”1. My first favorite phrase is, of course, “That’s the bomb-diggity, yo.” I’m pretty sure that’s not grammatically correct either. So, that makes me way stupid. Someone should think of the children and take away the keys to my blog.
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And would you, JennyJinx, run a business operation in one of those countries and simply make a stab at business communications and send them off expecting the native speakers with whom you did business to sort them out, or would you hire someone qualified to write business communications and get the job done in a way that…well…effectively communicated the information?
Typically, when one undertakes a professional endeavor, there are aspects that are outside one’s area of expertise. If they are so far outside that person’s area of expertise that he can’t conduct them effectively, then the intelligent, competent, responsible person gets someone qualified to do that part of the job.
There is a big difference between blogging/participating on forums in a language that’s not your own and doing the best you can and opting to send out business communications in a language that’s not your own without bothering to make sure that they’re coherent to your audience.
And, though I hate to interfere with your misuse of information–you do it with such a flourish–it does seem appropriate to point out that both of the people who complained about how long it took to read that thread were in fact native English speakers.
Ah, look! Nice of you to stop by, Tiffany.
First:
My husband speaks only English and yet he reads very slowly. My mother-in-law is a very successful businesswoman and yet can’t make it through a newspaper article in a good amount of time. So, your point is what? That even native English speakers are slow readers and are deserving of our condescension?
You read very quickly. Good for you. Here’s a cookie.
Now, my point about the grammar police is that they fail to realize that not using impeccable English grammar does not indicate a lack of intelligence. The fact is that email to which you refer doesn’t make a bit of difference to me at this point. That thread wasn’t the first instance that I’ve seen of someone being taken to task for not writing properly in English, but it did prompt me to write this post.
In fact, I consider anyone that can write in a language other than their own to be extremely intelligent. If they can communicate in more than two languages then I’m duly impressed. I can’t do that. So, if their English grammar isn’t perfect I it doesn’t matter. Unless I have nothing else with which to bludgeon them.
As for business communications, I wasn’t a part of that. I don’t care about that. In fact, I have engaged in business relationships with people from other countries and the bad grammar didn’t put me off. Of course, I was the one hired to do the writing, but… Once again, this post wasn’t about any of that.
Unless that person is arrogant. One can be highly intelligent, but his arrogance can take away from that. And so he doesn’t want someone else to do a job that he feels he can do effectively. Considering the person of whom we’re speaking I can safely assume he is that arrogant- or self-confident, depending on how one looks at it.
Considering his personal attacks in that thread I imagine it’s just arrogance. Which wasn’t the point of this post. His lack of impeccable grammar being used as a weapon against him was the point of this post. Not only him, though, because I’ve seen many instances of people being taken to task for their shoddy English grammar, though English isn’t their native language. That’s my point. That’s what irritates me.
Personally, I think he should have been bludgeoned for his sexism. That would have been a worthy argument.
I used to make snotty comments about grammar/spelling in casual forums, but have pretty much given it up. People just suck at writing, and not only non-English speakers either. I do point and laugh at lawyers, teachers, and other professionals who don’t get it right though; I think that’s fair. And of course if someone goes on a rant about it, while getting things wrong in the process, people are obligated to engage in mockery. I believe that’s in the rules somewhere.
I’m sure I’ve made a mistake somewhere above. That always happens when anyone discusses this topic!
Miz Uv,
I agree to a point. I think that some people actually just write like they speak. Every time I say “Bah!” or “Gah!” it’s because I would actually vocalize it that way. Of course, there are those that are just atrocious. I used to cringe every time I read a double negative (that’s my thing), but now… I think my brain just processes it the way it’s supposed to be and moves on. If the underlying message is acceptable (to me) then I’ll accept the language used to get it across. *snort*
That is. Especially the “I’ve got a juris doctorate and a masters and a fa-la-la degree” ones. Gah! It’s required to point and laugh at them. Absolutely. They’re sitting high on their pedestals looking down on the rest of us like we’re trash. When they fuck up we’re doing the world a favor by pointing and laughing.
And, no, you’ve made no errors that I can see. I have no idea if I made grammatical errors, spelling oopsies, or bad faux pas- I rarely proofread (bad, Jinxi!).
If you did, I wouldn’t tell you. You’re special like that.
I’m smart enough not to cast stones. Spelling and grammar are not my forte. But I earned the equivalent of a masters degree in nuclear engineering in 6 months. AND operated nuclear power plants about Naval cruisers for 3 years. So I’m pretty sure there’s a decent sized brain in my head. So I can forgive those that may not write or speak in the best of grammar. Besides, aren’t there more important things in life to get spun up about than grammar?
Thanks for providing an excellent example for my point. Aside from the fact that you obviously take joy in my lack of mathematical skillz, you’re a smart cookie who doesn’t use his big brain against anyone.
You’d think, huh?
Personally, I’m bored out of my mind right now, so…
I totally suck at Vocab….I dunno why, but I just can’t remember most “Big” words, but I have the idea of it in my head…the word just always escapes me. I can’t stand people who put others down when somebody says a word wrong, when the point was obviously gotten. So what if I called the cat’s paws, “feet”….it’s the SAME THING. So I feel you on the grammar thing….if the point was delivered without confusion, then why all the fuss?
I’m not a grammar nazi. Sure, certain things annoy me (like the abuse of homonyms) but I know that my English is far from perfect so I don’t feel qualified to go around pointing out others’ mistakes.
Having said that, I’ve seen people brag about their degrees/post-grad degrees/whatevers in English or call themselves professional writers and yet really suck at simple grammar/spelling shit. I’ve no qualms laughing at those people. I mean, if you’re going to present yourself as such an authority on the English language, you better write like it.
And no, one’s command of English, or any other language, is in no way a reflection on his/her intelligence.
U rite prety wurds.
I don’t give a monkeys about anyones spelling, grammar or use of punctuation when it comes to blogging. If i was reading some high class newspaper and the proofreader had obviously been on holiday that day i would tut probably but on here, what you are saying is always far more important than how it is said.
If a commenter can only find your grasp of the english language to bitch about, then they obiously have no answer to whatever your original post was about.
Christina,
I understand completely. When I’m having a fog day I can’t remember my name. Anyway, keeping it simple is sometimes the best thing. Honestly, if everyone used only the best grammar and vocab, our personalities would be lost online.
Lis,
A-men. Those people better never make a mistake or I will be there to point it out.
Jason,
You’re a freak.
Lucy,
Howdy!
I agree completely. If the argument is that weak then pick out parts of the argument, no the parts of speech. To me the grammar checkers in a debate are just as bad as the ones who end up screaming “Fuck you then!”.
thank you for directing me to this post euhm… thank you for mentioning this post, gee… thank you for referring me to this post … well euhm… like I said, thank you for pointing it out.
danke sehr, merci beaucoup, muchisimas gracias, heel erg bedankt!
Apart from the post, I think the comments are pretty cool too. As far as the “undertaking a profesional endevoar” I can only agree upto a certain point. True, if one is blogging about perfect english and hoping to make money out of it, their grammar better be top notch. However, most of us aren´t blogging about the english language, but about things that we are passionate about.
I have seen many english people over here (south of Spain) who have been living and working here for years and years and they are still not able to order their dinner in spanish, nor call a plumber. But any effort in spanish they will make to try and order paella or explain that they really don´t want the leak causing their house to be floaded is always appreciated, no matter how much they suck at their attempts
The problem, Jenny, is that you’ve responded to something I didn’t say. If you want to make a point generally about people being discourteous to and not appreciating the underlying intelligence of non-native speakers, do so–I’m sure that if you’ve read any of the other threads at BlogCatalog you are well aware that I’ve made similar points myself in the past and pointed out that, although I make no bones about the fact that I AM a “grammar nazi” and can’t help being tripped by bad grammar, there are a lot of blogs out there intended to convey information about particular areas that do so quite well despite less than perfect grammar.
My objectiion, which you’ve made so much of here, WAS entirely to the email in question–the one you say is of no interest to you. That’s fine. If you want to object to people underestimating the intelligence of non-native speakers, I’m with you. Having worked for ten years for an educational corporation with a heavy business in assisting foreign professionals in obtaining US licensing, I have had friends, colleagues and clients from literally dozens of countries, many of whom were at the very top of their various fields (usually in the sciences) and had a very poor command of the English language.
What’s not valid is hanging the whole thing on my objection to the lack of professionalism of sending out a business communication that was very difficult to decipher and then resorting to personal attacks when someone complained about it. If the email is of no consequence to you then my comments are of no consequence, either, and shouldn’t have been the catalyst for your post; my comments didn’t refer to anything at all except two decisions by this particular person: one to send out a business communication that was incomprehensible, and a second to resort to name calling and personal attacks when someone objected to that email.
If you disagree with that, say so. If you don’t, then your post here has nothing to do with what I wrote except that it perhaps reminded you of something that was already bothering you.
Tiffany
I’m well aware of the tone in which your admonishments were made. I’m able to read quickly and comprehend what I’m reading at the same time. Tut-tutting over someone’s lack of English grammatical skills was what drew my attention to your arguments.
Speaking of comprehension…
I did. As a matter of fact, I both agreed and disagreed with you in my response in this thread.
You must have missed some key parts of my response. I said:
and:
As for the rest of your post, I don’t have a whole lot of time to spend in BC forums. I drop in occasionally and usually jump right back out. I did notice that you are a professional writer, a degree holder of Political Science, a lawyer, a SEM expert and multi-national, um, whatever. I’m sure your hands are equally busy. So, I can forgive your overlooking the fact that I’d answered your second response before you even posted it.